We Need Mindfulness Training at Work
One Man’s Mission to Help Sellers Avoid Burnout and Anxiety - An Interview with Danny Grieco, Founder of MindHawk
Hello on a SUNDAY!
Usually I send my newsletter during weekdays but I’m trying something new here. Is Sunday a better day to reach you? Let’s see! Any feedback from you folks is super helpful!
This is also a break from the Layoff Guide. I want to give you all something more uplifting for a moment. The Layoff Guide will be back up and running, with only 2 more articles, this coming week.
I recently sat down with friend and former colleague, Danny Grieco, Founder of sales and mindfulness training company MindHawk. We were both sales reps at the same start up. For me, sales was the most stressful time of my life. But that’s not everyone’s experience. There are plenty of successful salespeople who love the challenge, the chase, and strive to be the best.
Still, there’s very high employee turnover in sales. People can’t keep up with the intense pressure and stress their employers put on them. As a long time seller himself, Danny realized that something was missing from sales training. In this interview, he tells me about how selling led him to mindfulness, and how he’s teaching others now.
Q: Let’s get started! Tell us about yourself and your sales background.
I’m the founder of MindHawk, a sales training company that teaches sales best practices and science-backed mindfulness techniques that can reduce burnout, increase emotional intelligence, and improve focus.
I’ve been in sales my entire professional career. That’s 12 years of pitching B2B software and hardware technology. My customers have ranged from tiny startups to Fortune 100 companies, and I’ve sold across most industries including CPG, government, education, financial services, and technology. I have experience in transactional sales as well as complex million dollar, year long sales cycles.
“No one tries to teach sellers about the inner mental challenges of sales, like resilience, focus, and self awareness.”
I consider myself lucky to have worked at companies that were big on sales training. Even though I’ve had a lot of great sales training experiences, I saw that there was a big gap. I noticed that no one tried to teach sellers about the inner mental challenges of sales, like resilience, focus, and self awareness.
Q: What’s it like working in sales today?
Sales culture is very competitive and optimized for short term performance. Everything is driven by the need to reach your immediate quota. It’s incredibly easy to tie your self worth to your number. To keep up, we operate from within a “today, not tomorrow” and a “work hard, play hard” mentality. Many sales reps have an unhealthy relationship with overworking. This leads to a disconnect with the self–not to mention your customers.
“Many sales reps have an unhealthy relationship with overworking.”
And at the end of the day, you can do everything right and still lose the deal. When your company doesn’t tolerate this, you’re left with an identity level threat. Maybe you have a family that relies on you and now you’re facing financial instability. This lack of control is really the definition of anxiety. That’s why this industry views high levels of attrition as the norm.
My father was also in sales, but in his time, all he had was a phone and maybe email. His job was to inform people about his product. Today, we have so many tasks and tools that are distractions like Slack, email, phone calls, sales technology, and social media. Your focus is fragmented in dozens of directions.
Q. How did you learn about mindfulness?
In my late 20s and early 30s, I was very successful in sales. I was renting a cool house in Austin, TX, all on my own. I had a BMW in the driveway and all the latest gadgets. But I was also depressed, anxious, and couldn’t seem to relax.
I did everything I was supposed to do. I stayed late on Fridays, attended trade shows over the weekend, and stayed late again on Monday nights in order to get work done. One time, the CEO of my company walked by and asked me what I was doing working so late. Next thing I know, I was given a $2,000 bonus on my next paycheck as a reward for pushing myself so hard.
I was successful in sales because I always worked really hard–probably too hard. I was into the grind, the hustle. I’ve been to president’s clubs. But I was always in perpetual sprint mode, going from meeting to meeting with no downtime in between. I was proud of working late, but was a brain dead zombie the next day.
Come the weekend, I’d feel so worn out, but I also couldn’t really be at rest. I felt the need to party or go mountain biking because I was in a state of anxiety. I couldn’t be still. But I wasn’t aware of this on a conscious level.
“I was in a state of anxiety. I couldn’t be still. But I wasn’t aware of this on a conscious level.”
I tend to date people who are calm and usually not in the corporate world. I was seeing a yoga instructor at the time who told me that I needed to try meditation. I started practicing 3 minutes of meditation a day for a year.
Fast forward and, due to management changes, I was let go from my sales job. Soon after, I had a mountain biking accident and tore my ACL. While I recovered, I attended a 4 day silent meditation retreat. This is where I really started to understand the power of stillness.
I dove into researching how to become better at pursuing stillness, rather than chasing stimulation. I found the Search Inside Yourself Leadership Institute. It’s like getting an MBA in mindfulness and how to teach it to others.
Q. What is mindfulness?
Answering the question “what is mindfulness?” is super interesting because so many people have so many different ideas. You’ll even see it trending and touted on magazine covers. Some people think mindfulness is another word for meditation, others think it’s about focusing on gratitude.
“I describe mindfulness as non-judgemental awareness of both yourself and others. It’s the opposite of being on autopilot.”
I describe mindfulness as non-judgemental awareness of both yourself and others. It’s the opposite of being on autopilot. For example, we often do things because we feel like we need to do them, like checking the news. For me, checking the news is quite triggering and it gives me a stress response. That sets the tone for the rest of my day.
Today, when I check the news and I notice that I’m starting to feel stressed and angry, I can view myself with non-judgemental awareness. I don’t need to feel bad about myself because of my stress reaction. I have a choice. I can decide to visit this news website less often.
Ideally, non-judgemental awareness helps us treat ourselves better and ascertain which behaviors are healthy for us. That allows us to optimize those behaviors. Basically, practicing mindfulness helps people be aware of their own wellbeing.
Q. Why do salespeople need mindfulness training?
I had a theory when I started my business. I interviewed dozens of salespeople and managers. I asked them: what are the qualities of long-term top performers? Their answers were not what you’d expect–because they weren’t really about sales.
Instead they said things like: being really focused, understanding the client, consistency, resilience, and grit. And these are all things that the practice of mindfulness can help people develop.
So why don’t we teach these things? The prevailing mindset is that they can’t be taught. It’s too abstract. Sales leaders try to hire for these qualities instead, looking for ex-athletes or people with military experience. Otherwise, they believe that only years and years in sales can get you these qualities.
I realized that, actually, this CAN be taught and even measured. Mindfulness is about teaching emotional intelligence and compassion. Learning how to get out of ‘the self’ and give your full undivided attention to the other person in the room. You’re not just waiting to speak, you’re actively listening. I really wish I had been taught these things when I was early in my sales career.
“When we’re calm and still in front of our customers, it can help them be that way too.”
Customers have two big complaints about sales people. 1. that they don’t listen, and 2. that they don’t understand. Your job as a salesperson isn’t really to get someone to approve of your product, it’s to understand them and their needs.
My mission is to elevate the profession of sales. Instead of being self-centered people who pester customers, sellers can be welcomed into the room. When we’re calm and still in front of our customers, it can help them be that way too.
Q. Should mindfulness be part of sales training programs?
I believe that sales training should really be focused on developing ‘the self.’ Self mastery is sales mastery. When you have better control of yourself, this leads to more focus, resilience, and improved prioritization.
There needs to be more training to complete the salesperson with a focus on mental toughness and consistency. I teach sellers how to avoid distractions and focus on the most high value activities, instead of trying to do it all.
“Self mastery is sales mastery.”
With this approach, you’re more likely to leave at 5 pm because you got your work done. You’re less likely to burn out. You’ll also have a better awareness of other people and can pick up on their cues faster. Sales reps can learn how to control themselves in the heat of the moment through breathing techniques.
You don’t have to be born with these skills or need a long career to develop them. You can be taught how to manage yourself better. This isn’t theoretical. This is something that leaders preach about. Phil Jackson, the basketball coach for the Bulls and Lakers, embraced mindfulness and meditation. Navy seals learn how to regulate their thoughts.
Q. Can you give us an example of how to use mindfulness techniques?
I was on a call with one of my training clients, helping them close a deal with one of their own customers. We had done everything right, up to this point. We worked with the right executives, we developed personal connections, and the pricing and packaging was set.
When we dialed into the meeting, we intended to finalize and sign the contract. But we were met with someone new on the call. Apparently, she was the new owner of this project and wanted to start discussions all over from scratch.
I was mad and annoyed at this person. They were trying to take control when we had everything all wrapped up. I noticed my heart rate increasing, I felt blood rushing, and a tightness in my stomach. The thinking part of my brain shut down and all my energy diverted to a “flight or flight” reaction. I was thinking, “she’s messing up my stuff. What is she doing?”
I had to pause. Breath in through my nose and out through my mouth. Focus on bringing my brain back online. Taking a step back, I asked myself, “what is she probably thinking right now?” She’s new to the team, has a lot to prove, and can’t afford to mess this up because her name will be on it. She’s trying to protect herself and has nothing against me, my client, or the product.
I have this internal conversation with myself in a matter of moments. Before learning mindfulness, I would have tried to bulldoze through this situation. Instead, I re-entered the conversation focused on understanding things from her frame of reference. I wanted to show her that I understood her position and give her a reason to trust me and my client.
This helped her find calmness in the situation as well. We closed the deal for even more than we had originally agreed upon. True success in sales, and in life, is in how you manage unexpected moments.
Q. How do you envision the future of selling?
I’ll start off with what I expect to see, and unfortunately, the future that I expect to see is one that is overly reliant on technology and sales tools. Sales reps are spread too thin, they’re not as effective, and they continue to burn out. We’ll see higher attrition, and poor mental wellbeing.
The future I want to see is one where sellers are more in tune with their selves and intentions. Where they can manage themselves in a healthier way, both physically and emotionally. Where the most important skill set, really a super power, is knowing how your customer is thinking and feeling in every situation.
“Mindfulness is a super power.”
Mindfulness is this super power. Sales people are more successful when they look after their wellbeing. Clients are better served when the salesperson is more connected to the clients’ needs. To be honest, the sales teams who realize this now, and implement early, will have a massive competitive advantage over their competition.
By focusing more on training your sellers to understand and connect, you also open the door for more diversity and a wider array of selling personalities. And when it comes down to it, people who are calmer, happier, and more collaborative, will stay longer at your company.